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Author
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Topic: AP Site "Jester"
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ebvan
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 06:37 PM
  
I would like to applaud E Johnson's reply to Jester (the Molester) over on the AP site. I only wish Jester were smart enough to get some good out of it. I hate to see an excellent post wasted. This guy should be locked up in "Happy Land" doing the Thorazine Shuffle all the way to the Jello Buffett.The response is well thought out and really covers the bases extremely well in words even some of the simple crowd can understand. It appears that some of the AP crowd are finding common ground with us because any fool can see that this guy is headed for re-offense by completely rejecting the opportunity he has been given. I worry this guy may "do it" just to prove he can. Just hide and watch,he'll justify it with "They were treating me like a crook, so I did it just to show them if that's the way they are going to treat me that's the way I'm going to act" If and when he does, I hope someone is there to apply the only sure guarantee against recidivism.
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stat
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 08:36 PM
Thank you ebvan. That made my evening. Sometimes in weakened states I wonder if posting is worth it. Coming from you, it means something.
Eric
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"Yours is a voice I need to hear but PLEASE not too loud and not too often." Peter O' Toole, Becket - 1964 IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 10:16 PM
Eric,I agree...great job! I think this calls for another farting preacher or at least, a launch of the photoshop in your honor! Happy New Year guys Ted PS: Are Donna and Sackett still hung over from Christmas???? IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 10:25 PM
Ted, I needed that encouragement. Here is an old comedy sketch ( 3 minutes?) with Jim Carry as an inept karate instructor for a women's self defense class. Very funny stuff.Happy New Year!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxebIViQxSs ------------------
"Yours is a voice I need to hear but PLEASE not too loud and not too often." Peter O' Toole, Becket - 1964 IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 10:47 PM
Hungover.....burp....I'll drink to that! Happy Holidays everyone! I took Christmas time off and didn't post on the internet for a few days. Of course the SO on AP is now firing me up - so Jester may catch my wrath in the next few days. E - I saw your post and it was very good! Taylor IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 12-29-2007 10:57 PM
My only regret (aside from spelling and grammer mistakes) on that post is that polygraph has been accused by anti-poly therapists (there are plenty in ATSA btw)of being too distracting and even an agitating source for offenders. In other words, we are accused over at the ATSA site member- forum of providing counterproductive distress on offenders. They have a limited point. In my Jester post, I mention the antipolygraph obsessed (read polygraph obsessed) sex offender from last spring. If Digithead were still posting, he would certainly claim that had peter-eater not been tested, he may have disclosed more while in treatment earlier and without the contempt. I dunno. I suspect Ray cringed when he read that part, as he has a far better pulse on the therapeutic modality of sex offender management and the subtle disdain for polygraph by treatment providers.
I typically HATE everything I write, no matter what the subject or where it's written, on the day AFTER I write it.Nopolyforme could use an intestinal flu, ya know? Barry, is that sinful of me to wish that on a fellow human? Pain with gas cramps, shooting diarrhea and back-folding vomiting. Is that wrong? [This message has been edited by stat (edited 12-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 07:22 AM
stat
Write your long posts in "WORD" spell and grammar check them then paste them into the AP forum. Therapists are conditioned to believe that they are "helping" everyone. While polygraph helps confirm their success; it also points out their failures. I can't imagine what it is like for a therapist to believe what an offender is telling them and then receive a call from their examiner and find out that the patient has been successfully manipulating and BSing them for over 6 months. Some therapists see us as an asset while others (who may belong to one of the few groups with bigger egos than our own) feel the need to discredit polygraph in order to validate their inner conviction that they are the best thing to happen to therapy since Freud mistakenly sent a valentine card for mother's day.
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ebvan
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 04:53 PM
I uncorked a couple of rants at sarge and GM please someone read them and see if they make sense.My head hurts and I need feedback ------------------
Ex scientia veritas [This message has been edited by ebvan (edited 12-30-2007).] IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 05:24 PM
EbvanLooks great to me....but I am on my third beer! Keep it up and you may be added to the list of "Outed Trolls". A fine place to be if I do say so myself! Keep up the good work guys! Ted IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 06:00 PM
I started to read and post over there, but my wife dragged me away. I'll try to catch up later. On a side-note, I called the believed to be Cliff "Clifton" in a private email he sent me reminding him he promised not to write me any more, and surprise, no denial / response. Okay, gotta run.IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 06:49 PM
Great job Eric and Ebvan!I can't begin to keep up with your efforts. ------- Be careful about ATSA - I don't believe they really like the polygraph. Eric right about their concerns (legit or illegit) that we place distress on the offenders. It does no good to dodge that, as distressed offenders are dangerous offenders. If someone were to spread a convincing argument that polygraph increases risk, that would be a bit of a hassle. Also, be careful about citing the Kokish 2005 article. Yes the authors noted that offenders considered the polygraph a helpful part of treatment. There are some of us who view that article as a vehicle for publishing the authors' concerns that the polygraph motivates false confessions. They know that all they really need is a steady trickle of very concerning conclusions, based in data, and they improve their chances of eventually prevailing in nixing polygraph monitoring. Another thing to be careful about is the Colorado DOC study data. The authors seem to have used a very inclusive definition of "new victim" and "new offenses," which are not spelled out clearly. Also, those are prison inmates, and those numbers may not reflect what we see among probationers in the community - especially in jurisdictions that that cast a very wide net (and include comparatively lower risk sex offenders). We might also consider whether we want to appear in public while using dramatic and inflamatory terms like baby-raper. Facts without drama, will probably take us further. I offer these concerns only for some alternative perspective. You guys are doing a GREAT job.
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Photoshopping will have to wait, though I do have a pic of Eric from Halloween. I'm gone for a couple of days of sleeping in the snow. Was hoping to get out over Christmas, but I had to do a wintertime replacement on a clogged radiator and overheated vehicle. If I'm not back in a few days, look for me in the spring, in the mountains above Santa Fe. Happy New Year.
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
Psydoc
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 07:07 PM
I’m new to this forum, so forgive me if anything in my post breaks protocol. I direct this message to Ebvan in response to his thoughts on therapy  I doubt there are many psychotherapist who believe they are helping each of the sex offenders they work with. We recognize the criminal mind-set and their want to manipulate and control. It is true, however, that in order to successfully complete a sex offender program, they must learn the basics of thinking errors, take a personal inventory of the cost/benefit of their behaviors, and endure a couple years attending weekly sessions. During which time they are given the tools to change their behavior. We do not usually view sex offenses as something that is “curable” but rather as a choice. I am a clinical psychologist (Ph.D.) and a polygraph examiner. I’ve conducted just over a thousand post conviction sex offender polygraphs, and have literally, only a few exams with what I believed to be questionable results. While the current position on treatment provider and polygraph examiner is that to do both is a conflict of interest: I disagree. I use a variety of test instruments and personally see the polygraph as an effective treatment tool.
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ebvan
Member
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posted 12-30-2007 09:16 PM
First off I have pretty thick skin feel free to say whatever you want. I have a question. If you don't think you are helping a patient, what are you doing? Wouldn't your ethics require that if you didn't believe you were helping them that you terminate treatment and refer them to someone who could help? I don't know. I'm just asking. As to Psychologists conducting polygraph examiations. I don't really see a problem unless you are conducting the examination on your own patients. Doing that would remove some of the checks and balances inherent in the P.O., Poly, Treatment containment module. Most polygraph examiners who are also criminal investigators don't do polygraph examinations on the subjects of their own investigations because it interferes with neutrality. I agree with the cautions against therapists conducting polygraph examinations on their patients for exactly the same reason. ------------------
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Psydoc
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 12:19 AM
You won’t need a tough skin for my posts they shouldn’t sting even a little.We aren’t talking about all patients; we’re discussing a very recalcitrant population. In the case of the sex offender our treatment approach is mostly psycho-educational groups. A person is terminated from treatment if they violate a condition of their supervision or a group rule. The treatment goal is to reduce the risk of recidivism. It’s a bit late to terminate them should they recidivate. So, to answer your question, we believe we are not helping if they violate community supervision or recidivate while in the program. Should either of these happen – and they do- they would be terminated and perhaps be referred to an inpatient treatment facility.
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ebvan
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 08:29 AM
First, please pardon my lack of manners. WELCOME to the forum. Your position as both a polygraph examiner and a treatment provider promises an interesting point of view for future discussions.I want to make sure that you did not misunderstand my comment as an accusation or an insinuation that treatment providers are naïve. That is not the case. Maybe “help” was too broad or too vague a term. For the purpose of my previous comment let’s define “help” as the successful application of a treatment methodology which facilitates or allows the sex offender to achieve a cognitive and/or behavioral change that reduces the probability of recidivism. Based on that definition; would it be fair to say that a treatment provider presumes that the offender is being helped based on their interaction with the offender absent articulable indications to the contrary? It has been my experience with many treatment providers that this is the case. If this presumption does not apply to you or your work, is it sufficiently common that my generalization has some merit?
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Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 09:41 AM
Psy, welcome to the board!!!! I agree that psycho-education is the most common mode of treatment, especially in phase 1 (in prison) modality. However, I have noticed a distinction in the treatment field between therapists' approaches, namely---and with all due respect----some therapists do not seem to grasp the group dynamic, and instead run canned groups with canned modules. One only has to get Offenders in a candid mood to see which groups seem to be compelling to them and which groups seem to be like a high school sex ed class.A brilliant therapist once ranted to me that far too many SO therapists have no grasp of the group dynamic and are ineffective at heating things up in those rooms. Having sat in both styles of groups, I must admit---the more engaged group is highly emotional---I have even had to choke back tears---and some groups are truly a waste ----half of the sessions being spent on money collection, jibber jabber, and whining. In the circles of the therapists who make the big impacts---you know the ones----- their clients write them letters or attend groups occasionally YEARS after they are off papers and refer family members to that therapist---those therapists abhor psycho-education and use the term as a derogatory description of the therapists who "fell" into the profession because they couldn't get work or private practice volume in the general practice arena. Justa thought. ------------------
"There is a time for laughing and a time for not laughing. This is not one of them." ---- Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau
[This message has been edited by stat (edited 12-31-2007).] IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 09:49 AM
Quote from Sancho on AP to Sarge:
Thank you for reminding us all once again that the main problem that you and Mr. Mashke have with polygraph actually stems from your inability to pass one. (or three)LOL. BTW, Sarge must be the worst cop ever-I sure wouldn't want him backing me up! Taylor IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 01:48 PM
Stat I'm sure that the treatment profession has it's own version of "Chart Rollers" I don't feel qualified to debate the value of one treatment methodology versus another but based on my observtions, the most effective treatment providers appear to be more "engaged" with their clients. If you ask them about one at random they don't have to pull a file to see who we're talking about. Taylor, I wish I could take credit for that comment, but I'm positive I have heard it or read it before somewhere I just can't remember where. If someone wants to claim it I will add my cudos to yours. I do intend to keep using it unless someone has a copyright. I think those few words speak volumes concerning GM's true motivation. If Georgie had passed his test his web site would not exist. ------------------
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Barry C
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 02:52 PM
Yes, welcome aboard.IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 04:32 PM
ebvan - you really hit a nerve with GM. I don't think I have seen Gerogie loose it and swear in his previous posts. Bullshit! Keep up the good work!Psydoc - welcome! Do you have a real name you want to divulge?
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ebvan
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 06:46 PM
He's really gonna love my response to his profanity then.------------------
Ex scientia veritas IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
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posted 12-31-2007 07:04 PM
EbvanWho let the dogs out? I love it! You just gave GM another New Year's "Kick to the groin"! NIIIIIIIICE ! Ted IP: Logged |
ebvan
Member
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posted 01-01-2008 02:36 PM
I seem to have succeeded in drawing Dr. Drew out of the closet or woodwork or whatever or wherever he comes from which provided an excellent opportunity to say everything all over again------------------
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Taylor
Member
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posted 01-01-2008 03:46 PM
Isn't it funny when any of them (AP) are backed against a wall then Gino, Drew or GM come to the rescue. GM's last post really reminds me of Lethe. I think he forgot which personality he was playing.IP: Logged |
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